Interview With Todd B. Kashdan, Ph.D.
Dr. Todd B. Kashdan is Professor of Psychology at George Mason University. He is a leading authority on well-being, curiosity, psychological flexibility, and resilience. He has published over 225 peer-reviewed articles and is in the top 1% of cited scientists in the world (over 50,000 times). He received the American Psychological Association Award for Distinguished Scientific Early Career Contributions to Psychology. He is the author of several books including Curious? Discover the Missing Ingredient to a Fulfilling Life (William Morrow/HarperCollins), The Upside of Your Dark Side (Penguin), and The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively (Avery/Penguin).
His research is featured regularly in media outlets such as The Atlantic, Harvard Business Review, The New York Times, NPR, Fast Company, and Time Magazine. He is a keynote speaker and consultant for organizations as diverse as Microsoft, Mercedes-Benz, Prudential, General Mills, The United States Department of Defense, and World Bank Group. He's a twin with twin 17-year old daughters (and one more), with plans to rapidly populate the world with great conversationalists.
Given your view that 'high-quality research is about asking interesting questions that receive insufficient attention,' what are some of the most pressing or provocative questions in psychology today that, in your opinion, are being overlooked? Additionally, how do you personally identify questions that have the potential to reshape our understanding of well-being and human potential?
For me, one of the most thrilling frontiers in psychology lies in understanding person-situation interactions. Imagine the potential breakthroughs as we explore how different personalities respond to varying environments. For instance, research suggests that in conflict scenarios, like gearing up for a wrestling match, individuals gravitate towards music that fuels anger rather than joy. In cooperative settings, such as planning a family vacation, there's a tendency to favor music that enhances joy over anger. But what about the personality profiles that drive these preferences? By honing in on competitive versus cooperative contexts, we can uncover which personality traits influence mood preferences. This is just a sliver of the situations that people find themselves in, and the atlas of preferences, thoughts, feelings, and actions that can be chosen.
The need for precise prediction models is evident—models that can accurately forecast how someone will think, feel, and act. Too often, we rely on sweeping assumptions based on general beliefs about the impact of backgrounds, like childhood adversity or sex or race, or personality traits, such as neuroticism, agreeableness, and extraversion. By adopting idiographic, or personalized, approaches to studying rewards and punishments, goal effort and progress, and social events, we open the door to more tailored interventions. These interventions promise to be more precise and powerful.
I think the key to finding interesting questions is to begin with a potential answer. Every scientist should ask themselves - if everything worked out exactly as planned (which it won't), what would the world learn? Too many studies do not offer much knowledge because little thought went into why the questions should have been asked. I'm interested in impact. Which is why my team tends to study big constructs such as purpose in life, resilience, and social anxiety, with an eye towards the enablers and barriers of human excellence.
In The Upside of Your Dark Side, you argue that emotions like anger, guilt, and selfishness can actually fuel creativity and bravery. How can individuals harness these ‘darker’ emotions productively without letting them spiral into destructive behavior?
When you last felt angry or anxious, it's worth asking, how did you handle it? Many people try to brush off negative emotions and continue with their day as if nothing arose. Research suggests this might not be the best approach. These emotions, like guilt, sadness, boredom, and envy, have evolved over millions of years to signal that something is amiss. Instead of ignoring them, it's beneficial to use them as catalysts for healthy change.
Negative emotions act like a built-in GPS, providing feedback and signaling the need for adjustments in behavior, reactions, environment, or relationships. Psychologically flexible individuals can experience discomfort while also understanding what these feelings indicate, allowing them to adjust and continue progressing toward their most personally meaningful goals.
To harness these 'darker' emotions productively, consider these strategies:
1. Awareness and Acceptance: Recognize and accept these emotions as natural and potentially useful. Acknowledge their presence and understand their triggers instead of suppressing them.
2. Harnessing Pain: Use the energy from these emotions to drive action. Anger, for example, can motivate you to address injustices or overcome obstacles, while guilt can encourage you to make amends or improve your behavior.
3. Mindful Reflection: Reflect on the underlying causes of these emotions to understand what values or goals are being threatened, allowing you to align actions with your deeper intentions.
4. Setting Boundaries: Establish clear boundaries to prevent these emotions from taking over. Know when to step back, engage in self-care, or seek support from others.
5. Reframing: View these emotions as signals for personal evolution. Selfishness, for instance, can be seen as a way to prioritize self-care, which is essential for sustained commitment to long-term goals you are passionate about. Envy, while it feels uncomfortable, is a mental note that someone possesses a quality or feature in their lives that you wish you had. Instead of letting this emotion harm the relationship, consider the person a role-model to dissect and understand about this desired quality or feature. Figure out how they do it and use this information to experiment on improving the quality of your own life.
The goal isn't to be miserable or angry intentionally, nor is it to ignore negative feelings when they arise. By integrating these strategies, you can transform uncomfortable emotions into powerful catalysts for creativity and bravery, while maintaining control and preventing negative spirals.
You’ve explored the idea that curiosity involves a cost-benefit analysis. Are there particular metrics or tools you use to assess when curiosity is beneficial versus when it becomes counterproductive, both for individuals and organizations?
I am very interested in trade-offs. Nothing happens for free. You can't ingest psychotropic medication without some kind of side-effect. You can't build up a skill set or pursue an audacious goal without letting something else go that is also potentially important. Psychological strengths such as curiosity are no different. When present in abundance, there are bound to be side effects.
One tool that we use is behavioral responses. How do people in a group respond to a curious person? You don't get uniform responses and it's valuable to map that variability. What percentage of people find it annoying or an inefficiency in the system as opposed to something that leads to divergent thinking and creative decision-making? This is one of my favorite initial studies that captures some of the adverse consequences of curiosity - here.
What is psychological flexibility?
Psychological flexibility can be considered a meta-strength. It is the tendency to respond to situations in ways that facilitate valued goal pursuit, and it happens to be most important in situations that are challenging and provoke distress. There are at least four ways that psychological flexibility can manifest:
1. Adapting to Situational Demands: Being able to adjust one's behavior and thoughts in response to different situations.
2. Reconfiguring Mental Resources: Effectively managing attention and cognitive resources to meet current needs.
3. Shifting Perspectives: Viewing situations from different angles to gain new insights and solutions.
4. Balancing Competing Desires and Needs: Navigating conflicts between personal goals, values, and external demands that arise in various life domains. It can be hard to shift between family, friends, work, parenting, and performance activities such as gym or athletics.
This concept is crucial for maintaining well-being, mental health, and physical health.
I really enjoyed your article, Do Self-Help Books Really Work?. Could you briefly explain why you believe we often 'overestimate the benefits of self-help books' and 'underestimate the impact of events that don’t require formal intervention by authors, motivational speakers, or therapists'?
Thanks for the kind words. As someone who has written three books that have appeared in bookstores under self-improvement and leadership, I am very cautious about the danger of giving advice and the importance of ensuring there is a scientific basis for any advice.
Self-help books often promise behavioral change, yet they frequently fall short of delivering on their claims. The existing research on this topic shows that these books tend to offer oversimplified solutions to complex personal issues, presenting a one-size-fits-all approach that fails to account for individual differences and unique life circumstances. The allure of quick fixes can be misleading, as readers may experience only temporary boosts in mood - not unlike a new diet routine working for several weeks before the body rebounds back. Moreover, the psychological biases at play—such as the placebo effect and confirmation bias—can create an illusion of progress, leading individuals to overestimate the effectiveness of advice. Without a solid foundation of scientific evidence, many self-help books lack the credibility needed to truly impact healthy change, leaving readers with unmet expectations and unresolved issues.
The transformative power of naturalistic life events and informal interventions is often overlooked. Engaging with people who hold different perspectives, whether through chance encounters with strangers or extended travel to foreign places, can be profoundly impactful. These experiences are inherently personalized, providing insights and support tailored to an individual's unique needs. Unlike the static guidance of self-help books, life events foster introspection and reflection, empowering individuals to draw on their own wisdom and experiences. Moreover, sharing these events with others offers additional perspectives, deepening the learning process.
Now obviously, the ideal is both. Find scientifically informed books that are framed in a way that moves you and influences your readiness to change and combine with powerful life experiences. The main point of my article is this: let's not promise more than we deliver. This goes for self-help books, TED talks, motivational speakers, and even your local psilocybin dealer.
What can readers expect from your latest book, The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively?
In "The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively," I dive into the science of principled or constructive rebellions. This book will equip you with the tools to challenge the status quo in a way that has the greatest chance of success. Here's what you'll find:
When you're in a group where you might have less status or power, being persuasive is like skiing uphill . But there are strategies to make your voice heard and your ideas impactful:
1. Consistency is Key: Stay consistent with your message. Research shows that a consistent stance can make a minority view more persuasive over time. It's about being firm without being rigid.
2. Trigger Curiosity, Not Threat: Frame your ideas in a way that piques interest rather than triggering defensiveness.
3. Objective Presentation: Position yourself as an objective presenter of information as opposed to someone who is just expressing an opinion. This can help others see your viewpoint as credible and worth considering.
4. Demonstrate Near-zero Self-gain: Show that your motives are aligned with the group's interests rather than personal benefit. This can enhance your credibility and influence.
5. Aim for Conversion, Not Compliance: Focus on changing minds rather than just getting people to agree with you in the moment. This involves deeper engagement and understanding.
This is just a slim outline of the steps that can help you navigate group dynamics and make your voice more persuasive, even when you might not hold sufficient power or status, or have a large number of people on your side (yet). The book is filled with tools, tactics, and strategies based on the best science on how to be more persuasive as a unique person with a unique voice.
You’ve spoken openly about facing distress in your life and using psychological techniques like cognitive defusion to manage negative emotions. Could you explain what cognitive defusion is and share any other psychological strategies that have been particularly helpful for you?
I detail this in great length in Chapter 6 (Mental Fortitude) in my last book, The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively. Cognitive defusion is a mental strategy where you create distance between you and your thoughts. This separation allows you to observe your thoughts without letting them define you. Imagine you're at a pie-tasting event; instead of judging the pies, you're simply savoring the flavors. You notice the flaky crust, the warm apple filling, and the sharp cinnamon. You're not upset by imperfections; you're just observing. This act of observation diminishes the emotional grip of your thoughts.
Numerous techniques help detach from thoughts and emotions. One effective method is to externalize them. Studies have shown that when people write distressing words about themselves, such as "unlovable" or "uninteresting," and then read them aloud, they begin to see these words as simple statements produced by the brain, not truths. By tearing up the paper and discarding it, they symbolically and literally reduce the power of those thoughts. This method has been proven to make negative thoughts less believable and less distressing.
Another technique to help you separate from your thoughts: Treat your mind as a separate entity. Consider it an opinion generator. Use phrases like "Thanks, mind, for that unhelpful advice." This creates a mental buffer between what you think about and the essence of who you are.
The goal of cognitive defusion isn't to banish negative thoughts but to enable you to face them without losing resolve. It empowers you to act bravely, even in the midst of adversity.
Where can people go to learn more about your research and ongoing projects? Are there any specific platforms or social media channels you recommend for those wanting to stay updated on your work?
The best way to connect with me and my work is to subscribe to my latest, beloved project- my Provoked newsletter on Substack: https://toddkashdan.substack.com/about
Our Well-Being Laboratory gives away what we discover for free. Go to our website to download articles: http://toddkashdan.com/
Do connect with me for conversations on social media, I am most active on Linkedin: @toddkashdan - https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddkashdan
But can also be found at:
Instagram: @toddkashdan
Threads: @toddkashdan
Twitter: @toddkashdan
Facebook: @ToddKashdan https://www.facebook.com/todd.kashdan/
Plus, there is my blog on Psychology Today: psychologytoday.com/blog/curious
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